51: Get into the mind of a hiring manager

Let's face it, career changers aren't typical job candidates. You've got the extra hurdle of having to convince a hiring manager that you can do the job you're applying for in a new field.

To better understand what a hiring manager is thinking—and feeling—I’m speaking with Dawn Graham, PhD, a licensed psychologist and author of Switchers: How Smart Professionals Change Careers and Seize Success.

Dawn is a leading career switch coach, TEDx speaker, LinkedIn Learning instructor and the former host of the popular show, Dr. Dawn on Careers, on SiriusXM Radio.

In this episode, Dawn takes us on a psychological deep dive into what’s really going on when a hiring manager evaluates a career changer. She reveals which pain points you need to address, the mistakes you could be making without even realizing it, and how to reframe your approach to win over the person who'll likely be your boss.  

Episode Highlights:
• The psychology aspect of a job search
• Loss aversion and red flags
• Incorporating emotion in hiring
• Elimination vs Selection
• How to counter bias with networking
• Closing the gap as a career changer
• Pros and cons of cover letters
• Identifying a hiring manager's pain points
• How a hiring manager is likely feeling
• Addressing concerns a hiring manager has about career changers 
• How to show that you are serious about your career switch
• Deciding if you need to go back to school
• Mistakes you could be making when applying for a job in a new field
• Match first, stand out second
• The benefits of a stepping stone switch

Find Dawn Graham, PhD, at:

Website: https://execpsyc.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drdawngraham/

Book: Switchers: How Smart Professionals Change Careers and Seize Success

LinkedIn Learning Courses: https://www.linkedin.com/learning/instructors/dawn-graham

TEDx Talk: Your Next Job is One Conversation Away

SiriusXM Radio show: Dr. Dawn on Careers

Music credit: TimMoor from Pixabay

Podcast info:
What's your career switch? What do you think about this episode and the show? Tell us at careerswitchpod.com. Follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn.

Transcript

Lixandra: Hi, everyone. I'm Lixandra Urresta, and this is Career Switch Podcast. This show is here to encourage you to take action with whatever career change you're considering or working on. Maybe you're trying to switch industries or professions or break out on your own and start a business. In some episodes, I talk to people who've made their own career switch, whether by choice or circumstance. They share the good, the bad, and the truth about their journey, including what worked for them and what didn't. In other episodes, I speak with experts who offer their best career advice on challenges that can come up during the process of making a career change. 

After all, it takes guts to switch things up, and it's not easy. However, it is possible. So I hope you hear something in this episode, an idea, a suggestion, a piece of advice that'll spur you into action with your own career switch, whether it's taking that first bold step or trying something new. Welcome. I'm glad you're here. 

Today, we're getting into the mind of a hiring manager. We're not talking HR here. We're talking about the person who'll likely be your boss, the person you'll have to convince you can do the job you're applying for in a new industry or profession. To better understand what a hiring manager is thinking and feeling, I'm speaking with Dr. Dawn Graham, a licensed psychologist and author of the book, Switchers. 

Dawn is a leading career switch coach, TEDx speaker, LinkedIn learning instructor, and the former host of the show Dr. Dawn on Careers on Sirius XM radio. In this episode, Dawn takes us on a psychological deep dive into what's really going on when a hiring manager evaluates a career changer. She reveals which pain points you need to address and the mistakes you could be making without even realizing it, all of which leads to reframing your approach to winning over a hiring manager. 

Hi, Dawn. Thanks for joining us today. This topic of how to convince a hiring manager that you can do the job in a new field seems to come up regularly on this show, understandably, since it's for career changers. So when I found your switchers book while I was doing some research along with your LinkedIn course called getting into the mind of the hiring manager, I knew this was the perfect topic and I reached out to you to be a guest. Why don't we start with you telling us about yourself, your book and the course.

Dawn: So as you mentioned, my name is Dawn Graham and I've been in career management for most of my career. I did write a book about five years ago called Switchers, How Smart Professionals Change Careers and See Success. And one of the unique things about that book is that it combines my background as a career coach, a recruiter, and a licensed psychologist. And the reason I think that is important for today's topic is because anytime you have human interaction, there is a psychology aspect. to it when humans are interacting, whether it's negotiating, interviewing, hiring, there's always an aspect of the brain that's playing a role that often we overlook. The course getting into the mind of the hiring manager was actually based on the book and particularly the chapters that have to deal with how humans biases and our neural networks and all of that get in the way sometimes of being successful in these areas.

Lixandra: Okay, so let's dive in. Tell us about the psychology of a job search from a hiring manager's point of view.

Dawn: Yeah. And so as you, you point out with that question, there's two sides, right? There's our own and everything that's going on in our mind, but then there's the hiring manager. And I think it's important to address both, but I knew for today's conversation, we're going to focus on what's going on in the mind of the hiring manager from a psychology perspective. And how can I use that as a switcher to be more successful? So there's a couple of different concepts that I talk about in both the book and the LinkedIn learning course that I'll cover today. But certainly there's much more than we're going to have time to delve into. The first one is loss aversion. So this is a basic human tenant where for survival at one point, it was much more beneficial to avoid losses than to seek out gains. And this has stayed with us to put it in today's perspective. For example, we tend to put more value on losses over gains of the same amount. So if you, you had 20 bucks in your pocket and you lose it, you're going to be more angry about that. Then you are happy about finding $20 on the sidewalk that you didn't expect to find. So the reason this plays into hiring is if we go into the assumption that we're all trying to avoid losses, then a hiring manager automatically is looking for red flags. What are some things that are flashing warning sign about this candidate? And many people who are switchers tend to fit into that category because they don't have the traditional background. Another one is that Humans incorporate emotions into every decision we make, from what we eat for dinner to hiring decisions. So the amygdala is always playing a part in these roles. And to have what shows up in hiring tends to be, I have this gut feeling, or there's something about that candidate. We can't really put words around it sometimes, but this is always happening. And so we have to recognize that there's these mechanisms going on inside the hiring manager's head that can either persuade them to lean towards us as a good candidate or move away from us as a good candidate. So when you start to think about what's going on in their mind and what they're processing, you can use that as a switcher to be more successful.

Lixandra: Yeah. Can you give us some examples of how you can use it to be more successful?

Dawn: So I mentioned a moment ago about selection versus elimination. I think this is one of the key things that surprises a lot of job seekers. But when you think about it, if a hiring manager gets 500 resumes for a job, which is not uncommon today, as a matter of fact, they often get that in the first few days, then What do you need to do? You need to narrow that pile down to perhaps five to seven candidates that you can actually interview. So what happens is that mechanism in the brain that goes on is that weeding out mechanism. So I'm looking for easy ways to reduce this pile of 500 to five to seven. And so I'm looking for, and I'm going to throw some things that are common out there that a lot of organizations unfortunately use, but shouldn't. gaps in a resume, or perhaps they look at you as a job hopper. You've had too many jobs in the last five years, so we're going to eliminate you because we're going to use that piece of data as a proxy to say that you're not committed. Is that true? Of course not. We don't know because we're just looking at a piece of paper. But this is the process that applicant tracking systems go through. Maybe if you put a salary on that and that salary is outside the range, That's an easy way to eliminate you. So this is one of the common things that I often tell switchers is to think about that the first step in a job search is about elimination. The final stages are about selection. So when you get down and you're maybe in the top two or three candidates, now it's why are you more qualified, or why should we hire you over the other two people we're considering? Now they're thinking in terms of selection. What do you bring of value that maybe others don't? So when you know that you can structure your job search in such a way that you can get to that final two or three. And one of the best ways to do that, especially as a switcher, of course, is through a referral. So again, going back to the psychology of the job search, We all have biases and one of them is in-group bias, right? We tend to feel more comfortable with people who are in our group, in our circle, in our network, people we know. So if you can get somebody in the company or a contact that you know, who knows the hiring team or somebody at that company to present your resume, then you start to become part of that in-group. Okay, somebody I trust, put this resume in front of me. And even though they don't fit the traditional background, they come from a source that I trust. And so that's one great strategy, which is why a lot of career coaches push networking. Because quite frankly, if you're a traditional candidate, all of these same strategies will work. But if you're a switcher, you really need to incorporate a lot of these strategies to get past the hurdles that you'll face. for the sheer fact that hiring managers want to avoid losses. And as a switcher, unfortunately, they see that as a red flag. And instead of diving into it and taking time to understand what you bring to the table, they're probably going to eliminate you before you get the opportunity to do that. So your job as a switcher is to get the opportunity to do that.

Lixandra: Yeah, because to dive in takes time, right? And there's no time. It's just easier to set you aside and keep going with people who already have the experience in the same industry. And it makes sense with referrals. It means someone is vouching for you. Similar to when we refer a plumber or a contractor saying, you know, hey, I use them. They did great work for me. And that helps a lot. That also, that also cuts down on the number of contractors you have to talk to, right? There's no need to talk to a dozen because you can just focus on the ones that have been referred.

Dawn: And that is a great point because what other people fail to think about as they're getting into the mind of the hiring manager is that often hiring is not that person's day job. So I'm an accountant and I'm hiring an associate accountant, I'm Insert name of field here, I'm a lawyer, I'm hiring another lawyer. So we expect as a candidate that the person vetting us has the experience, training, qualifications to hire. And the fact is very few of these individuals have had any type of training in hiring. Also, they may only do it a couple of times a year, which means they're not getting a lot of practice at it. So here we are assuming that this person is going to ask us the right questions or they're not going to have biases. And so when you start to think about the fact that, wow, these hiring managers, it's not what they do day to day. You have to do the work for them, which means as a candidate, you have to close the gaps. You have to think about. What assumptions might they make about me and how can I alleviate those fears? So for example, if you're going from a nonprofit to a corporate environment, what biases might they have about me? True or not? But what concerns? And they might be concerned you've not worked in their industry or you've not worked in an environment that measures sales or whatever it is you're going for. And so when you can start to think and get into the mind of that hiring manager and what some of those concerns are, you're more prepared to answer those questions and close those gaps, even if they don't ask you those right questions.

Lixandra: Right. But that's something you can address in a cover letter.

Dawn: True. However, fewer companies are taking cover letters. I will tell you this. As a recruiter, as somebody who's hired quite a bit, if your cover letter gets read, if it's read after your resume, do I think you should still write one? Absolutely, because for that 10% who might read them, it shows you're invested, it shows you've gone above and beyond, and it gives you another opportunity to share how you're a match and how your skills are going to, at the end of the day, make them successful. So should you do it? Yes. Will it be read? low probability, but that is still a great way to demonstrate your interest. And that's unfortunately why you have to go all in on either networking to get your resume in front of somebody or do a great job on that resume showing your transferable skills, changing the language, meaning if you're coming from a different industry that uses different industry terms, know the industry terms of where you're going and use those industry terms so that people who are in the hiring positions are making those connections that you get it, you get their customers, you get their field. And to put a lot of time into revamping your brand on that resume so that they see you as a match.

Lixandra: Well, personally, I'm happy to hear about the cover letters because I dread writing cover letters.

Dawn: Most people do. And I would tell you, if you have a clear plan A, you can create a shell that you can just update. It still takes time. I've seen a lot of people make mistakes because they just change the company name and then it doesn't align. But if you're going to do it, this is where I say, put your effort into it. Do everything you can to give yourself an advantage.

Lixandra: Well, on the opposite, I spent too much time crafting the cover letter in relation to the job description in an effort to convince the hiring manager, right? You know, that I can do the job, so bring me in for an interview.

Dawn: Yeah, it's a bummer in here that they're not read as much as people might hope.

Lixandra: So going back a little to the psychology, you brought up loss of aversion and how we can address it. What about incorporating emotion?

Dawn: Yeah, so one of the other things that I think all job seekers fail to do, I say this a lot in the book, do the work for them, do the work for them. What does that mean? We often go into a situation and we're so excited about all of our skills and we talk about all of our skills in the interview or we talk about all of them in networking, but we've failed to close the gap on how that will solve our audience's problem. So when you're, you're getting into the mind of the hiring manager, it's really about researching what problems are in this industry. What problems might this hiring manager have executing on their goals? What are their goals? What's their strategy? What's their approach? What are they missing on the team that I might be able to bring? And so doing your research to get that information and then not just spewing your skills, which might be incredibly impressive. That's what you do when you leave them without closing the gap. You know, they're probably gonna interview somebody right after you and not take the time to think too hard. However, if you say, and because I have X skills and because I've done these types of projects, how that's going to help you and your organization is by the following. And really showing them that you not only understand their pain points, But you understand how your skills transfer into their team to solve those. You may not know enough to do it in a 10 page PowerPoint presentation, cause you're just at the interview, but doing your homework and closing that gap and asking those questions in the interview, if you don't know, Hey, what's your one year strategy, what outcomes are you trying to solve? What's missing on your team? And then relating your experience to that. You want the hiring manager to feel the emotion of relief when you walk out of that room. You want them to feel this person gets it. This person's going to make my life easier. This person's motivated, driven, agile. They can pivot. They understand what our team and our organization is trying to do. So I feel relief that this person is going to come in and fill this role because I know I'm not going to have to pay attention to this anymore. I'm going to get these off my desk. This person's going to stay and grow and be a great role model for other people on the team. You want them to feel that when you're done with the interview. That's why it's important not just to dump a lot of skills on them, but to find those connection points between what's the pain they're feeling and how can I solve that?

Lixandra: Oh, thanks for that insight. I've never thought about it that way. You know, because as a candidate, you're always, you're just nervous. You want to make sure you make a good impression and you're pretty much focused on how you're presenting yourself and not necessarily thinking about how you're making the other person feel.

Dawn: How you make them feel. It's not about you. And I tell people that all the time. They're like, I'm nervous. I'm anxious. I'm like, that's good. That means you care, but it's not about you. Hiring managers hate hiring. It's taking them away from what they're supposed to be doing, accounting, lawyering, whatever they're supposed to be doing. They want to finish this process as painlessly and quickly and seamlessly as possible. The easier you can make it for them. They don't care if you were an interior designer and now you want to be an accountant. They really don't care about that. What they care about is. Do you understand my pain points? Do you have the skills to solve them? And how quickly can you get started so that I can focus on what I want to do? Oftentimes, they translate that into, well, if I'm looking for an accountant, they better have an accounting background. Because again, that's the easy connection. But if you can make your connection from interior designer to accounting easy, they're fine with that. They're like, I just want easy.

Lixandra: Yeah, that's a lot of good psychological insight that we may not even think about when we're interviewing. And I know we're covering a lot here, but just to keep going, what are some other concerns that hiring managers have when filling a role? Yep.

Dawn: So remembering that this is not their day job and they really don't like taking time away to do it. They are concerned, I'm going to have to invest even more time training this person. So again, assumption is made that if you have the traditional background, I won't have to spend as much time training you. That is a big assumption. And it's often an incorrect assumption. So again, as a switcher, the assumption is going to be, I'm going to have to spend even more time training you because you don't have a background in this industry or in this type of client we work with. So the more you can do to convince them that they're not gonna have to spend more time training you, and you can do that by a number of things. One, you can get some experience prior to even making your switch where you could say, yeah, I have not done that on a paid role, but I've done that over here. You can find relatable experiences from your background that demonstrate why the skills you have will actually make that an easy transition. You can show examples of, when you've been thrown into a chaotic situation and how you've overcome that. You know, maybe you were hired and two weeks later your new manager quit and now you had to do not only your job, but your new manager's job and you didn't even have a manager and somehow you did it and you were successful. Those types of examples show a hiring manager that you're agile, you're a quick learner, and that you're going to figure it out. And showing that you're resourceful, in my opinion, as a switcher is one of the most important things you can do. Showing you don't need your handheld, showing that you can find answers on your own, that you can network quickly with people in the organization to get that help from a variety of places. Remember that hiring manager wants you to make them look good. but they want you to do it as much as possible without them having to hold your hand. And their assumption is if you're a switcher, they're going to have to do more hand-holding. If you can show them that it's actually not true, that's a big bonus for you.

Lixandra: Anything else you want to bring to our attention about this topic?

Dawn: Yeah, I think, um, although we've been talking more about the hiring manager's mind, I think it is worth a moment to talk about our minds as a job seeker. And that's because you actually brought up a couple of things along the way about what your thoughts are as a job seeker. And I think it's really important for us to be in the right mindset too. And that mindset being that we're making a switch and we might have years or even decades of experience in an area, but when you're doing something different, human nature. We're nervous, right? We're comparing ourselves to people who've been doing it for longer. And I think confidence breeds confidence. So if you're asking a hiring manager to roll the dice on you, to pay you a salary for doing something that is relatively new to you, you have to invest first. And what I mean by that is. If the hiring manager believes it's a whim that you just woke up one day and decided, I would like to do this. They're not going to be convinced. They need to see that you put time in and that time could be education. Doesn't have to be. And quite frankly, I don't think it's in today's world. It doesn't have to be a formal education. Could be volunteering. It could be a self-created internship so that you went to some nonprofits to try out your web development skills, whatever it is you're trying to do, that you've been pursuing this. And that is another piece that is not only going to give you confidence as a job seeker, because you're like, yeah, I can do this. I have things to learn, but I am learning and I am figuring it out. But it also gives that hiring manager confidence that this isn't just a win. Remember, one of the things that they're concerned about. They hate hiring. They don't want to do this again in a year. So they don't want you to say, huh, I really thought I wanted to do this, but now that I'm doing it, it's not what I thought. They want you to know this is the path for you. They want you to grow in this role and evolve with it. They want to know you're going to be around for a little bit. So if you show and demonstrate that you've already made a commitment to this, then that's going to be another point that convinces the hiring manager more so than if you've not done anything.

Lixandra: Yeah, that makes sense. Speaking for myself, when I decided to switch into podcasting, I started this podcast as a way to show what I could do with editing, interviewing, and it's definitely helped with freelance work. It also gives me something to put on my resume without having to wait for someone else to give me that opportunity. So you can do that, right? As a switcher, create your own opportunities.

Dawn: Yeah. It could be you start to become a thought leader on LinkedIn. You write articles, you join communities and groups on LinkedIn, you comment, you learn, you grow, you're involved, right? It's about getting involved in the field and recognize that yes, you have a learning curve, but you're investing your time and resources and energy into that. That is going to make a difference for a hiring manager.

Lixandra: Right. So if you want to go into web design, let's say, then you can start designing some websites for friends, family, even nonprofits. Yeah. As a volunteer. Any thoughts, Dawn, on going back to school? Because that's something else people consider when it comes to a career change.

Dawn: What I would say is be very careful. A lot of people think, I'm going to go back to school. I'm going to get a graduate degree. I mean, I have a graduate degree. They're great. I'm not putting it down, but that shouldn't be your first thing. Because I've seen too many people spend a lot of money and time in graduate school. They've not tried it out yet, whatever their profession is. And then they get into it and they're like, Ooh, what I learned in the classroom is very different from what I'm doing in the boardroom. or what would I envision this to be based on what I knew isn't exactly, or, Ooh, it doesn't pay as much money as I thought, or, Oh, I'd have to move across the country because most of this industry is in California. And I didn't want to be. So I would say a lot of people make that mistake that they're like, I'm excited. I'm going to do this. I'm going to go to school and. That's a lot of time and money to invest before you try it on, try it out. And I know school feels much more structured and it's easier in terms of if they lay all the courses out for you, but I highly encourage you, try it out, talk to people, shadow, find out if it pays what you think it pays or how long it's going to take to pay you that, find out where the majority of people are doing it. And what the day to day is like, because you might learn that, Hey, this job requires all this travel. And I didn't know that. And now I can't do that. So create your own experiments is what I tell people. Make sure I've seen a number of people who I've told to do that, try it out within their company. So maybe they do a project with the department who does it there for their extra time. And they're like, ah, It looked more interesting from the outside looking in.

Lixandra: OK, let's pivot a little in that I want to bring up something you mentioned when we first chatted about doing this episode. You said that we focus on the wrong thing. I put that down in my notes. So can you elaborate on that?

Dawn: I think as we're getting into the mind of the hiring manager, one of the things you really want to do is not make assumptions. One of the best things you can do is Talk to people in that company. It doesn't have to be in the department that you're looking. If it is in the department that you're looking, that's even better. Talk to people in the industry. You want to talk to as many people as you can so that you don't make assumptions as to what the hiring manager wants. A lot of people either don't do that research Or they assume that I'm just gonna throw everything I've done onto your resume and on LinkedIn because I've done so much cool stuff that they're gonna see me as, they could put me here and they could put me there. They're gonna see there's so many opportunities for me to be with their company. But again, not how hiring managers think. They think about elimination versus selection. So if you put everything you've done on your resume that is actually going to be a red flag. They're going to say this person doesn't match anything. I say this in the book a lot, match first, stand out second. And what I mean by that is as you're rebranding yourself and you're getting into that mind of the hiring manager, they want to look at your resume, your LinkedIn, your cover letter, whatever it is they're looking at your interview. And in a very short amount of time, say, Yes, this person is going in the yes pile. I'm not eliminating them. I want to talk to them more. That's what I mean by match first. And sometimes if you're making a major switch, that might mean taking off accomplishments that you're really proud of, but make no sense in the new industry. So the story I often tell, and I think this is briefly in my book, I was working with a woman who had a PhD in chemistry. You wouldn't be impressed with a PhD in chemistry, but she was trying to get into the business side of pharma and kept leading with this PhD in chemistry. So what did the business hiring manager say? Hey, you know, that's great. You know, all these theories and philosophical stuff. We need somebody who knows strategy, who knows how to manage a team, a budget and all this stuff. This person had those skills, but was not leading off with them. And so when she rebranded, she took the PhD off, which I'm telling you is very painful because that's her identity. That's, you know, we get very connected to our accomplishments. People started paying attention to her. And then when she was down to the bottom two or three, they said, well, what makes you stand out? Well, now she brings in her PhD in chemistry. And I actually understand not only the business side, but I actually understand the scientific side. And bam, match first, stand up second. She gets the job because the other candidates did not have a PhD in chemistry. However, when she led with that, they couldn't see the match. This story to me is like the poster child for getting into the mind of the hiring manager and When you understand that, when you understand it's about elimination and not selection, when you understand the concept of match first, stand out second, when you understand the concept of, you know, you're in the military and you use the word mission. And again, hiring manager might be really impressed with that, but don't know what to do with it. So you change the word project. All of a sudden it's like, Oh, I get it. We have projects. You've worked on projects. It's those types of things. that switchers have to think about that often traditional candidates don't, but really make a difference.

Lixandra: We're getting so much good stuff, Dawn. Can you just give us some client examples that illustrate some of the points you're making?

Dawn: This can be a perfect example of why going back to school first is not usually the best path because school can certainly help you build context, build terminology, build language around what you want to do next, but without trying it on. Because one of the things I talk about in the book, as well as the course, getting into the mind of the hiring manager, again, thinking about the psychology of the job search, is that we can get really excited when we think about a new career path, because anything new, right? New place to go, new car, new whatever, everything's exciting.

Lixandra: Right, we're filled with hope, hope for the future, that it'll give us more money, more flexibility, more fulfillment.

Dawn: Yeah, we just, we have, we see all of these positives, but we also experience loss aversion, and you know, then we start to realize, well, I might have to take a step back in salary. I might have to go into the office, whereas I've been able to work from home. I might need to travel more. I might have more of a learning curve and, you know, feel uncomfortable for six months. I had a client who, and a lot of these switches are people who decided not to, not to ultimately make the switch. But I think, I think that that is why this, this process of the psychology is so important because you have to be willing to give some of those things up. I had a client who wanted to be a consultant, thought it was a great lifestyle, but recently had started a family and, you know, traveling four days a week. wasn't working out. And so went back to their old role. But I think that's an important story to tell because a lot of people fail to remember that when they're making a switch. That, you know what, you're not losing all those skills that you attained throughout your career. And if you change your mind later, you can change your mind. You know, oftentimes you can, and then you have these new skills to bring back to your former profession. So I do think that there are many, many benefits to creating experiments for yourself.

Lixandra: Okay, that was helpful. However, I am going to ask you for an example of a client who did switch.

Dawn: I have plenty of those as well. So one thing I talk about in the book is a stepping stone switch. So sometimes if you're making a major switch, and I break this down, industry switch versus functional switch versus double switch, which is industry and function. And I had somebody who was a lawyer who wanted to move into HR in a startup. And this person was a lawyer in a large organization, corporate lawyer. So this was a pretty major switch because it was definitely an industry switch. Startup environments are themselves very, very different than large corporations. And moving from a legal role to a human resources role. Incredibly bright, very smart. Honestly, I would hire this person to do anything. But of course, networking, sending resumes, People saw this person as a lawyer, not an HR person. And so had to completely rebrand. And then we did what we call a stepping stone. So instead of making the full leap, she made the move into her current organization in HR in more of the legal side. So more of the personnel. employment hiring side where she could use some of her legal skills, but also learn more of the HR. And she did that for a year and a half. And then when she had some of that traction on her resume, then she moved to a smaller startup. And since she's moved to a couple of different startups as chief HR officer. And the reason I love that story is because again, you have to ask yourself, even if it takes a little bit longer, is it better to be on the right ladder eventually than to be on the wrong ladder? And this person could have thrown in the towel and said, well, clearly no one sees me in this role and startups don't see me as a startup person. But when she made the decision to do it in a couple of steps versus, you know, one false swoop, she was much more successful because she wasn't asking the hiring manager to see her that drastically different. So I think that that story is one that a lot of people take inspiration from because it may take a little longer. But the other benefit of her doing it this way was that she didn't have to take the major pay cuts she might have if she got an entry level HR job at a startup. She was able to maintain her salary for the most part. And so there are benefits. to doing it a little bit more systematically than just jumping in.

Lixandra: Yeah, yeah, it makes sense. I mean, you may have to do it one step at a time, and again, it helps, right, from a hiring manager's point of view because you have the experience.

Dawn: Yeah, and I can tell you, too, I think one of the other things I see successful switchers are creative in using what they do have, right? And I have a whole chapter in my book called It's Not Fair, my point of this chapter is really to encourage people to find those creative outlets. And so just to give you another example, I had a client who is in the military, wanted me to switch. Obviously, anybody switching from military civilian, that is a big switch. Lots of rebranding and rewording of resume and things like that. But wanted to get into a particularly difficult role in program management in a tech firm. Not only a tech firm, but one of the top tech firms, right? Like if I'm gonna go for it, I'm gonna go for it. So the nice thing about, and I would say anybody who's in the military is you have an automatic network that a lot of people don't have because military is so helpful to other military when it comes to networking. So I would say tap into that network because it's huge. There are many who've come before you And they will help you not only open doors for interviews, but they will help you understand how to rebrand yourself, you know, what struggles they had. So, so that's what this person did. I said, let's, let's tap into that network. The other thing that we talked about, and I guess this somewhat relates to stepping stone. If you want to make a switch and a major switch, so double switch industry and function. It may not make sense to target some of the top industry-leading companies. They tend to be hard to get into for traditional candidates. So being a switcher, unless your dad's the CEO, then we talked about really creating a list of more realistic companies, companies that might be open to having somebody with a nontraditional background And, you know, this took a little bit of convincing, but long story short, engaged military contacts actually got in with a smaller company that was very, um, not only open to military, but also open to people who brought non-traditional backgrounds because they found it actually brought new ideas to the company. And they had success with that. Worked in that company a couple of years and a few years later, eventually landed at one of the top tech firms. And again, it's, it's really about getting into the mind of the hiring manager. All of this comes back to that because when you work at a Google, you're getting 4,000 resumes a day, regardless of whether you have an open job. So I'm trying to weed through that. as a non-traditional candidate, it's going to be very different than maybe a smaller company that's not a household name, but still a great company where you can learn. And the thing I love about smaller companies is that you tend to learn a lot more because your breadth of responsibility is often greater. So I think, again, this is where we need to think about the person hiring me. Is somebody at Google gonna hire me for a role that I have very limited experience in? Probably not.

Lixandra: Yeah. So when you say a company is open to nontraditional candidates, it's the hiring manager that's open to hiring nontraditional candidates. So that's something, right? Again, to consider from a hiring manager's point of view.

Dawn: Exactly. Exactly. And the other nice thing about being a switcher these days, post pandemic, it's definitely been done more. You're finding more people in the hiring roles who have been switchers themselves, which, so I think that will be a good thing over time. And people are more open to people switching because the industry is changing so much and the market's changing so much that certain, certain things are obsolete and new things are coming out where people don't have traditional backgrounds. So I'm hoping, I'm hoping that drives more switchers. I think it will.

Lixandra: It's definitely happening in publishing as magazines are downsizing. All those editors are moving on to other types of content. So, so yeah. Okay, Dawn, as we wrap up, I'm definitely going to add your website to the show notes along with a link to your book and your LinkedIn courses. Tell us again about them.

Dawn: Switchers, how smart professionals change careers and see success. It's in paperback, audio and Kindle. And then I have four courses on LinkedIn, getting into the mind of the hiring manager is, is definitely the one that relates most to what we talked about. But, um, I also have a version of the switchers book on there with exercises as well as the likability effect and visibility for advancement. So all related, all have a psychology twist to them, as you can imagine.

Lixandra: And tell us briefly about your Ted talk, because that's also about changing careers.

Dawn: Yeah, so the TEDx I did a few years back and it is very much about networking and again, has a psychology bent to it. As an introvert, I recognize that networking is not the easiest thing for a lot of people to do. And so really how I talk about networking in the TEDx is about creating ambassadors and creating ambassadors from the people you've already built relationships with and the incredible value that you can get from the people you're already surrounded with that you're not getting because you're not asking a specific question. So if you are one of those people who is like, oh, networking, meeting new people, walking into a big room, but I know I got to do it, this TEDx Talk is for you.

Lixandra: Special thanks to Dr. Dawn Graham for being our guest today. You can find links to the resources mentioned in this episode and more helpful information in the show notes and on our website, careerswitchpod.com. So what's your career switch? Are you motivated to take action after listening to this episode? Tell us at careerswitchpod.com. We'd love to know, along with any feedback you have about the show. Let us know too, if you'd like to be a guest. Follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn at careerswitchpod. And please rate, review, and share with your friends and colleagues. It'll help get the show out there. Thanks for listening today. Till next time.