45: Avoid burnout with your career change

It takes time to change industries or professions, and depending on how you handle that time—and the feelings that come with it—it could lead to burnout. 

I speak with Dr. Kyle Elliott, a career coach and founder of CaffeinatedKyle.com. Kyle coaches career changers, so they avoid burnout as they work on their career switch. 

In this episode, Kyle shares how having clear targets, realistic goals and a good support system can keep you from burning out.  He offers techniques to apply for jobs strategically along with ways to take care of yourself while changing careers.

Episode Highlights:

• Specify clear targets 
• Set realistic goals
• Focus on what you can control
• Stay grounded 
• Separate facts vs feelings
• Techniques to apply for jobs strategically
• Who should be in your support system
• Self-care while making a career change to avoid burnout
• Ways to bolster your confidence to combat impostor syndrome
• How all jobs are the same

Find Dr. Kyle Elliott at:
Website: https://caffeinatedkyle.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kylecromerelliott/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/caffeinatedkyle/
X/Twitter: https://twitter.com/caffeinatedkyle

Resources Mentioned:

Kyle's articles:
How to Avoid and Manage Job Search Burnout

How to Write a Career Change Resume (with Examples)

Workforce Development Board: Find one in your area

Average job search:
U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics Employment Situation News Release 9/1/23

Episode 5: How to handle uncertainty while making a career change

Music credit: TimMoor from Pixabay

Podcast info:
What's your career switch? What do you think about this episode and the show? Tell us at careerswitchpod.com. Follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn.

Transcript

Lixandra: Hi, everyone. I'm Lixandra Urresta, and this is Career Switch Podcast. This show is here to encourage you to take action with whatever career change you're considering or working on. Maybe you're trying to switch industries or professions or break out on your own and start a business. In some episodes, I talk to people who've made their own career switch, whether by choice or circumstance. They share the good, the bad, and the truth about their journey, including what worked for them and what didn't. In other episodes, I speak with experts who offer their best career advice on challenges that can come up during the process of making a career change. After all, it takes guts to switch things up, and it's not easy. However, it is possible. 

So, I hope you hear something in this episode, an idea, a suggestion, a piece of advice that'll spur you into action with your own career switch, whether it's taking that first bold step or trying something new. Welcome. I'm glad you're here. 

Burnout. It's a big topic these days, and it certainly applies to making a career change. It takes time to switch industries or professions, and depending on how you handle that time and the feelings that come with it, it could lead to burnout. In this episode, I speak with Dr. Kyle Elliott, a career coach and founder of caffeinatedkyle.com. Kyle coaches career changers and helps them avoid burnout as they work on their career switch. He shares how having clear targets, realistic goals, and a good support system can help you avoid burnout. He also points out facts versus feelings, and he shows us how to take care of ourselves while changing careers. 

Hi, Kyle, thanks for joining us today. Let's dive in. Burnout is everywhere these days. We read so much about it, which is a good thing, right? It's no longer this hush hush thing where you have to push through whatever you're going through at the time. And I learned about you on LinkedIn when they posted your Forbes article called How to Avoid and Manage Job Search Burnout. And I thought we could apply it to career change. First, tell us what you do as a career coach and who do you work with?

Kyle: I'm so glad you reached out. Specifically around that article, it’s one of my favorites. I wrote my doctoral dissertation on mental health, and I wrote that article when I was in the middle of that program. I'm a career coach. So people typically come to me when they're in one of two buckets. One bucket is they're trying to find a job. They know exactly what they want to do. And they're like, Kyle, help me get this job at Metta. The other group is they're a career changer. They're like, I don't know what I want to do. However, they tend to be a senior manager or executive, so they have a lot of experience and don't want to start over. So I help them figure out how do I leverage all this experience, my background, my skills to make some sort of career pivot. And then hopefully get them in bucket one where they say, I want this job at Meta or a hyper growth startup or a VC backed company. How do I go make that happen?

Lixandra: And what are some challenges that you see with your career change clients that could lead to burnout?

Kyle: It's really challenging to find a job. We're not taught how to find a job. Maybe you went to your career center at your university. In high school, you might have had a class. And I don't mean a full course, but one class where you spent one hour, one day learning how to write a resume. But we're not taught how to job search. So it's overwhelming. And then on top of that, if you're trying to change careers, there's not a lot of good advice out there on how to change careers. And then on top of that, people say, oh my gosh, am I good enough? Are people going to want to hire me? It's a difficult job market. So it becomes really overwhelming for people when they try and change careers. They say, oh, I just don't feel like I'm good enough. No one's getting back to me. So it's just a lot of overwhelm, stress, fatigue that people face when they're trying to change careers.

Lixandra: I'm sure imposter syndrome kicks in, right?

Kyle: Yeah. And then people say, oh, I don't think I'm good enough. What if I land this job and then actually can't do it? I come from marketing. I want to go to sales. What if I get in there and I'm actually not good at sales, even though that person's likely been doing a lot of sales in their marketing role, they get in there and say, Oh, maybe I'm actually not good at this. So that comes up a lot. And then most of the people I work with are actually employed. Probably 90 to 95% of my clients are employed. So then there's the stress of managing that 40, but usually like 60 hour a week job. And then saying, OK, now I need to make time for the job search on top of my full time job, on top of caring for kids or a parent, all those extracurricular activities. So that can be really overwhelming as well, trying to just make time for everything.

Lixandra: Yeah, yeah, definitely. And one thing we also touched upon when we first spoke was the uncertainty of it all. Tell us about that.

Kyle: Yes, I think that's a good place for us to start. The uncertainty of the job search is really challenging for people. They say, oh, I'm applying to jobs, and I don't know if I'm going to hear back from this person. I don't know how long it's going to take to find a job. So where I encourage people to start with their job search, whether you're a career changer or just looking for a job in general, is saying, what is in my control here? And those are where I would set some KPIs, or key performance indicators, And so what's in my control is getting a really clear position I'm going for. So instead of I want any job in tech, no, I want to be a project manager in tech. OK, what kind of company? Is it going to be a big company or a small company? OK, great. Is it going to be a tech company or a fintech? Is it an established company? Is it new? Get really clear on that target position and company. And then what else is in your control is also updating your resume, optimizing your LinkedIn. And then setting some KPIs around the number of applications you send out every week, the number of people you network with. What's not in your control, but the goal clients always want to set with me, is here's the number of interviews I'm going to land. I want to land 10 interviews by the end of the month, Kyle. Or I want to land a job in two months or three months. You can't control that. And it can be really frustrating if you try and set that goal. So instead, I would say, here's the inputs. Here's what I can control in the job search. And you'll be a lot more successful.

Lixandra: You cover that in your Forbes article to set realistic goals. Isn't it normal, though, to say in two to three months because we're excited about our career change or we just want to leave wherever we are? So we want to make that change quickly.

Kyle: Yeah, if I wanted to land new clients, for example, I could say I want to land this number of new clients. But instead, I would take a step back and say, no, I'm going to publish these articles, I'm going to be a guest on podcasts, or I'm going to post on LinkedIn. But I would instead, if you're looking for a job, say what's in my control, and then hopefully I'll land a new job. However, it's not up to you if you land a new job, unless you're going to be self-employed. And even then you're waiting on clients to end up working with you. So I'd really encourage you to take that step back and focus on what's in your control, because that's easier than for you to each day, literally get a checklist and say, here's what I'm focusing on. And that can help you avoid that burnout where you're just waiting on someone else. And that can literally be maddening, just waiting, waiting, waiting for other people who may never reply to you.

Lixandra: That's so true. I have a whole other episode on dealing with the uncertainty since that's such a big part of making a career switch, the waiting. And with networking, you could be like, this one person can help me reach out to another and pass along my resume and that'll get my foot in the door. But focusing on one person probably isn't the best thing to do either, right?

Kyle: Exactly. A lot of people say, Ooh, as long as I hear back from this person, it'd be great. No, let's say you want to work at Meta. I would reach out to five or 10 people in each department you want to work in, because then that's in your control. I've reached out to these people and then hopefully one of them will reply. And then if none of those people reply, reach out to more people. It's not in your control if people reply. It's in your control if you reach out and that can help you navigate that uncertainty of saying, okay, let me keep going back to myself. What's in my control? Another technique I like doing, a lot of these are going to be writing techniques. I have a legal pad in front of me, a pen. I love separating the facts from the feelings and saying, here's the facts. Here's my years of experience. Here's the skills I have. Here's the companies I've worked at. Here's the labor market. And then feelings can come up, imposter syndrome. It could be lack of confidence and writing those feelings down as well, but also clarifying those are feelings and those may not be reality. And then going back to the facts on the other side, the reality and saying, no, this was the reality. I've been unemployed for 17 years. I have a feeling maybe I'm too old. Okay. The fact is no, I have 17 years of experience. Feeling I've worked at the same company. Maybe people won't like that fact. No, I've worked at the same company. I'm the only person that's done that. And going back and forth can be really powerful because you're validating your feelings, but then you keep coming back to the facts of the situation.

Lixandra: Yeah, it keeps you grounded instead of going off in your own head.

Kyle: Exactly. And I think, as you said, that dealing with uncertainty can help with that uncertainty to say, no, here's the facts. Let's get grounded in that. I just worked with a client. They've been at the same company for over 25 years. It's changed names a few times for the same company. And that's something we had to do. Yes, it's the fact that you've been at the same company for a long time. You've been at the same type of positions for a long time, but your feelings may be you're an imposter, these different things. But let's keep going back to the facts. You've had a promotion every two years. They've retained you when they've laid off all these different people. So going through those facts can be really helpful. And one way I do with a lot of clients is to also look at your performance review. That can be helpful. If you've had performance reviews, evaluations, letters of rec, those can help you go through and say, oh, these are good facts to look at when those feelings come up or people feel a little nervous, especially if you're not used to talking about yourself as well.

Lixandra: That's a good point. I think we tend to forget about our performance reviews, right? They happen once a year and then we just kind of forget about them for the rest of the year.

Kyle: Exactly. And if you haven't looked for a job in a while, that timeline can be challenging as well. I find a lot of the clients I work with, this client, for example, last time it was 25 years ago. So it was 98 right out of his MBA was the last time he looked for a job. And he said, I went to the career fair and I had like five offers. And now it's very different. He's like, I've been looking for five months and I have nothing. So also having that realistic goal that you just mentioned a few minutes ago is really important as well. Knowing that the average job search right now, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics is around five months. If you're unemployed, that's just average across the United States. It's going to be different depending on your industry, how old you are, those sorts of things, but it's around five months. So it can be helpful to know where that is. And if you're less than five months, it might just take a little longer applying to more. And if it's over five months, maybe you need to be changing some things in your job search can be helpful to know as well.

Lixandra: What about those people who are laid off? And I'll admit I was one of those people after my layoff who thought making my career change was my full-time job. I was freelancing, but my mission was to find a new job in a new industry. So what do you say to those people?

Kyle: I am of the belief that looking for a job doesn't have to be a full-time job if you do it strategically. I think if you spend a few hours a week really strategically looking, that's what I would suggest. My clients, many of them also have children, so they're working on their job search in the morning before the kids wake up. They might use their lunch break when their kids go to bed or maybe a Sunday. They carve out four hours in the morning or the afternoon and their partner looks after the kids or a family member. What I would suggest is being really focused with your time and saying I'm only going to have an hour or two hours a day to focus on the job search because a lot of people spend. Three hours going through monster calm or indeed or linkedin and say their job searching when really they're just kind of scrolling. Instead, I would say, OK, I have an hour a day. Mondays, I'm going to maybe go look and find jobs I'm interested in. Tuesday, I'm going to apply for them. Wednesday, I'm going to reach out to recruiters and people in my network and have some areas that you focus on, because we know the more time we have, it's going to expand. However, if we have a full-time job and we look for a new role, we're able to put it in there. So we know we really don't need 40 hours, we just kind of tend to make it fit because we're told by other people that if you're unemployed, it has to be your full-time job. I would instead encourage you to spend that time on self-care, up-leveling your skills, networking with people, looking after your mental health, those other things as well. Freelancing, like you said, that can bolster your resume. You can network with people, have informational interviews. That's where I would spend your time instead of just job searching.

Lixandra: Yeah, I like that. So be strategic as opposed to feeling like you have to keep at it no matter what.

Kyle: Yeah, and really using that time in a way that's meaningful, and it's going to propel you forward, like an hour or two that's really good instead of eight hours just eh. And setting that KPI and saying by the end of each day, I'm going to apply to a role. In a week, even if you just do Monday through Friday, that's five really good roles a week instead of, I'm going to scroll, apply, scroll, apply. Maybe they're nice roles, maybe they're not. Instead of a lot of my clients saying, I'm going to apply to one really good role a day, customize my resume, and reach out to five people at the company. That's a big, lofty, strategic goal each day. And if you do that each day, again, that's five jobs a week, 25 people a week if you do five for each job. And that can add up really quickly.

Lixandra: That's a lot, especially since customizing a resume can take hours. It's a lot of work.

Kyle: It is. And another way I suggest to kind of avoid that burnout is setting some time limits. I like using a timer that's only a timer because as soon as people pick up their phones, I'm guilty of this. We start doing a million things. So I love a timer that's just a timer. A lot of clients have like an old watch in a closet. Set it for 20 minutes. And say, I'm going to spend 20 minutes customizing my resume for each application I submit. And a lot of my clients are tech savvy, so they have these fancy formulas they use. I literally just highlight it and say, I'm going to customize these words for each resume I submit. I'm going to then spend 20 minutes and reach out to five people at the company. I'm then going to spend 20 minutes and go celebrate applying. And then there's an hour and you applied.

Lixandra: Oh wow, I'm going to have to try that because I'm the opposite. It takes me hours to customize my resume according to the job description, then the cover letter, which I dread writing, and then trying to find people on LinkedIn who are connected to the company. So yeah, it can take me the whole day or even two.

Kyle: Oh, gosh. I think the first time you create your master resume, your master cover letter, it may take a little longer. The first time you reach out to someone. Each subsequent time, I think it could be quicker if you have some good spots where you know you're going to customize it. And going back to the beginning, having a really clear target. I'm only applying to project manager roles at startup tech companies and fintech specifically. then your resume is going to be really similar. And the only things you're changing is, here they call it project management, and here it's project coordination. So I just need to change the word coordination to management. If you're applying to really different roles, one is called finance, and here it's HR. Whoa, whoa, whoa, that's really different. Those two are not the same. You shouldn't be applying to two really different types of roles. So we're going to be applying to more similar roles and there might be less roles, but you're going to have a lot higher response rate because you're really focused you're able to go to those specific roles and people are going to be like oh my gosh you're exactly what we're looking for.

Lixandra: Well, in my case, I've been applying to podcasts, but one could be a career podcast. Another could be a political podcast. One I applied for was for a museum. So I had to customize my resume and cover letter because each podcast is about something different.

Kyle: I love that example too. Now you have these masters. So hopefully if you apply to another career podcast, the second time you can reuse pieces and then it'll be 20 minutes the next time you apply to a career podcast.

Lixandra: Oh, okay, so have multiple masters.

Kyle: Yeah, a lot of my clients are product people. So I think this is a beautiful example. They're product managers, and they might have two or three different focus areas. They might have kind of the product before a launch, product maybe research, or they might have product operations after a launch. So that would be kind of two templates that may take a while to design. Okay. But once they launch, they have these two templates that are ready. So for you, you might have a career template. You might have the museum template. And then afterwards, I would say, OK, I have 20 minutes to customize, and then I'm done. Or you can have two 20 minutes, one 20 minutes for customizing, and then another 20 minutes for proofreading. But I wouldn't get in the habit of spending four or five hours, because those subsequent timers, I find it doesn't get that much better. It might get a little better, but it's not getting that much better, I find, once you have a really solid template.

Lixandra: Great. Thanks, Kyle. I hope listeners out there can apply this to themselves because this is the kind of thing that could lead to burnout.

Kyle: I'm guilty of it. I'm a recovering perfectionist and I love spending a lot of time editing, editing, editing. And then at a certain point we have to say, okay, this isn't good enough.

Lixandra: Yes, I think I'm in the same boat. My thinking is that because I'm pivoting, I come from magazines, so I'm switching my editorial skills from print to audio, that my resume and cover letter have to convince that hiring manager that I can do the job versus someone who's been in audio for years. I think that's why I take so much time customizing.

Kyle: I'm different than a lot of resume writers and career coaches. I like a short, tight cover letter, 200 words, maybe 250 words, that says, here's what sets me apart from other people. And it can be like three bullets. For you, I think the first bullet should be a magazine background. Here's what sets me apart from every other person in podcasting, as I've worked in magazines before. starting with those things that are distinct and unique about you, instead of everyone wants to blend in and say, I've done project management. If you apply for a project management, they know you're qualified. Hopefully if you're applying for the job, but I would start with what's distinct and unique about you and shine a light on that. Cause that's going to help them say, Oh my gosh, this person's one of the top five or 10 out of a hundred or 500 people.

Lixandra: Okay, thanks for that. I'll definitely do that with my next job application. Something else you covered in the Forbes article is having a good support system. How can that help avoid burnout?

Kyle: It can be really lonely going through a job search. It can be really difficult because a lot of us tie our identity to our career. And having a support system can be helpful. And I suggest with a support system being really clear with them what you need from each person. So there are some people you may just want to vent. And being clear with them, hey, I'm reaching out about my job search. I don't want you to send me a resume template for more jobs. Clients, I often encourage them to get really clear, especially once they start working with me, with their friends and family. Hey, I have a coach now. Please just let me vent to you. I also suggest people have some mentors, so people who are where you want to be 5, 10, 15 years from now, to learn how they got there. And I think of it like a shortcut. So then you can say, hey, I'm thinking of doing the certification or going back to get a degree, or I want to work at these types of companies. So they can tell you, hey, that worked well for me, or here's something you should consider instead. I would suggest also hiring a coach to support you, because as we said earlier, most people have maybe spent an hour professionally learning how to job search. We spend 40, 50, 60, 80 hours a week at work. It makes sense to hire someone to support you in navigating that process. And it doesn't have to be an expensive coach either. If you went to a college or university, there's often a career counselor there. There's also the Workforce Development Board. You can tap into one in your community. So you don't have to go through the job search alone because it can be really challenging to keep sending out resumes and applications and not hear back or get, Hey, we found someone more qualified. So having that support system around, you can make the process a little less lonely and overwhelming.

Lixandra: So for people who have partners, you shouldn't just rely on your partner and just dump everything on them, right? It's good to expand your circle.

Kyle: Yes, a lot of my clients that give their partners homework, and often their partner's homework is to just listen. Because their partners love to give a bunch of advice, and it's well-meaning. I do the same thing to my partner. And now my partner will come home and say, Kyle, I'm just venting. I don't want you to coach me right now. And then other times he'll come home and say, OK, actually, Kyle, I want some advice. You can coach me. But usually I encourage people to just have their partners because we spend so much time with them. Just be someone that listens to them. And then if you need, you can also tap into their network and be specific. Hey, here's the types of companies I'm looking into. Can you help me? And often we're surprised kind of by who our partners know. One of my clients, he's like, Oh, I forgot. My wife is the president of the BTA. And we went through the PTA roster and oh my gosh, all these parents worked at every single company my client wanted to work at. And then he's like, oh, my wife's also the secretary of our synagogue. Oh my gosh, here's hundreds more people I can tap into. So being specific with what we need from our partners can be really helpful and letting them know, hey, I don't want you to be coaching me or giving me advice right now. I just want you to sit with me and listen can be really powerful.

Lixandra: Great. And you mentioned self-care earlier, so let's get into that. What do you advise your clients do to make sure they don't burn out and take care of themselves while they're making their career change?

Kyle: I encourage people to set some rewards for those things that are under control. So a lot of clients, I talk about celebration, and clients are like, I'll have fun once I land a job. That's not under control. So instead, I would set some ways to have fun throughout your job search. So for example, each day, perhaps when you send out an application, how are you going to reward yourself? A lot of my clients, it'll be like, Ooh, I am not going to watch TV until I send out these applications each day. Or some clients it's like, Ooh, I'm going to take my kids to frozen yogurt after I send out five resumes or, Ooh, I've really been wanting a Peloton Kyle. Once I send out a hundred resumes. Everyone's different when it comes into their love language, how they like to be rewarded. I'm not a things person. My partner is, so he loves little goodies. So that's the way we celebrate him. For me, I'm an experienced person, a time together person. So for me, it might be, hey, let's check out this new restaurant and go there together. So it figure out what excites you and would motivate you, not just when you land a job, but throughout the job search as well. Maybe you don't like networking. So hey, if I send out five networking messages this week, I'm going to go try that new restaurant down the street with my partner. I also encourage people to have days off from the job search. I would encourage you to limit your job search to the most at five days a week, typically Monday through Friday. Or if you work during the week, maybe only do Sundays or Saturdays for your job search and set some parameters around that. And then having the people around you, your partner or family or friends, hold you accountable to not be job searching every minute of the day.

Lixandra: Yeah, that's very important. And along with that, you ask your clients to work on their mindset to avoid burnout. What's that about?

Kyle: The biggest piece I see is around confidence. A lot of people, especially career changers, they feel like, well, maybe, as we said, I'm an imposter if I do this, or perhaps I lack confidence in really being able to do this change. One of the ways I encourage people to bolster their confidence through this is to reflect on all their accomplishments, everything they've achieved up to this date. And then one of the proven research-backed ways to start combating imposter syndrome is to start internalizing those accomplishments. One of my clients really struggled with this. So I said, before our next session, I want you to write down 10 pages of all your accomplishments. I want you to bring it back, write it out, pen to paper. And they only did four, and I was still happy. I said, as long as you don't just put, I don't know. That's my one rule in coaching with clients. They can't say, I don't know. I said, I want 10 pages of everything you've achieved, not just in your career, but in life. I'm a mother. I'm a partner. I'm proud that I started this process of looking for a new job. I have this degree and writing it all out. And then keep looking back at those when you get rejected, when you don't hear back from someone, when you're like, why am I doing this? It can be really helpful to look at those and then practice internalizing them as well and see like, no, I really am fabulous. I've done a lot of amazing things.

Lixandra: Yeah, sometimes we need those reminders, right? Because it gets overwhelming. You know, this one person that we're hoping to hear from and it's been two or three days and no word and you start feeling discouraged. So this list can definitely keep you grounded. Something else you mentioned when we first spoke was that 90% of jobs are the same. What do you mean by that?

Kyle: And when people are making a career change, they say, oh my gosh, this is some huge career change. It's this huge switch to something completely different. And at the end of the day, most jobs are the same. I remember doing this activity or workshop where I had people I had on the board, what a project manager did. And everyone's job was to write out their resume, some examples of what they had done that was similar to project management. And someone said, I've never been a project manager. I work at a morgue. And I was up on the stage, I was this keynote speaker, and I was like, oh gosh. And then we started going through their role and they realized they were a project manager. They had the corps come in, they managed the budget, they had different stakeholders.

Lixandra: Isn't each funeral like a project that has to be done from start to finish? Exactly.

Kyle: And there's a budget. Everyone who's attending is stakeholders. At the end of the day, they're like, oh my gosh, I'm literally a project manager. I should change my title at work. You, you manage projects. Each episode of a podcast is a different project you manage. And there's different stakeholders. There's the audience. There's the person you're interviewing. There's the editor, all these people. So that's what I love. Most of our jobs are the same. So if you're making a career change, maybe you think, actually, my job is pretty much the same compared to most people, unless maybe a doctor or something really specialized. But most jobs are the same. And your role as the job seeker is just to use the language of that other person. So it's kind of like speaking a new language. Hey, I can do all that. I just have to learn to speak that language a little differently on my resume, on my LinkedIn, and when networking.

Lixandra: So this is a good concept to keep in mind because it'll keep us right from getting overwhelmed and exactly said, Oh my gosh, this is such a huge life change.

Kyle: Yeah, it's just a little transition. And I think that can help you come back to getting grounded and say, Oh, maybe this is just a little change. I've done a lot of this. And if you go back to those facts and feelings, all the facts are, I actually have done a lot of this. It's just called something a little different.

Lixandra: Well, thanks so much, Kyle. I'm sure this episode is going to help a lot of listeners avoid burnout. Tell us about your coaching services and how can listeners find you?

Kyle: Yes, so I specialize in career changers. So if you're thinking about making a career change, I'm happy to speak with you. My website's caffeinatedkyle.com. And then I spent a lot of time on LinkedIn. So Kyle Elliott with two L's and two T's. Happy to see you over there as well.

Lixandra: Thanks to Dr. Kyle Elliott for being our guest today. You can find Kyle on his website caffeinatedkyle.com, on Instagram, X, and Facebook. 

You can find links to the resources mentioned in this episode and more helpful information in the show notes and on our website, careerswitchpod.com. So what's your career switch? Are you motivated to take action after listening to this episode? Tell us at careerswitchpod.com. We'd love to know, along with any feedback you have about the show. Let us know too, if you'd like to be a guest. Follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn at careerswitchpod. And please rate, review, and share with your friends and colleagues. It'll help get the show out there. Thanks for listening today. Till next time.